FYI: OEM oil filter dissected

[KuroNekko]

thanks...should have gone back to the top. At 4k, the filter material looks as though it could have easily gone twice as far.

It should as Suzuki's oil change interval is 7500 miles for "normal" use and 3000 miles for "severe" use.

Interestingly, Suzuki considers all of Canada as severe use and the OCI is always 3000 miles.

It's because you Canucks are so hardcore... well... at least your winters are. I'm quite sure it's because of the winter temperatures that Canadians are on the "severe" schedule.

[SamirD]

I'm not a professional debater either. I just like to debate topics when there is evidence to support opposing positions. The OEM oil filter debate is a good example.

I agree with many of your points such as more expensive doesn't mean better. However, in the world of oil filters, the evidence is there to support that price correlates with quality.
There have just been so many dissections proving that more expensive filters have better components that simply make them better products.
Much like a $4 Fram oil filter is inferior to a $7 OEM-grade filter, a $7 OEM-grade filter is inferior to a $13 premium-grade filter. It's in the construction, filter media material, number of pleats, etc. These are all observable in the numerous dissections all over the internet that compare them.

The point where I differ from your perspective on oil filters is that I don't think the design matters as much as you believe. The evidence is the fact that Suzuki's (and many other) OEM filters have a number of applications. In the case of the OEM Suzuki filter Bootymac dissected, this very same filter is specified for a 2.0 liter engine, two 2.4 liter engines, and a number of outboard boat engines. To me, this goes to show that the OEM filter can handle a varying range operating specs that allow it to be this universal in application. This all makes sense if you understand how an oil filter works.
The "specs" that people talk of here are actually minimums that the filter needs to meet because factors like oil pressure, flow rate, filtering capacity, and filtering efficiency are all variables. They are really not constants.
Because of this, the OEM specs aren't so important as long as their minimums are met. Most premium-grade filters simply exceed these minimum specs and offer better performance and longevity due to superior components like synthetic filter media and metal end caps.

Also, given these factors are variable, the design (like shape and size) of the filter does not need to be identical to OEM; they just need to be close enough and have the same key components. Basically, an oil filter design is not that important as long as it works to meet and exceed the minimum specs. An oil filter is nothing like a cam lobe, an engine valve, or a gear cog. It's simply not a component that needs to be exact by design. What's important is that it has key components like anti-drainback valves and bypass valves if the OEM filter does. However, it does not need to be the exact same size or shape.

Now, I've never said the OEM filter is bad. It actually looks good, but Bootymac's dissection proved it's not better than premium aftermarkets like Mobil 1. The end caps are evidence.
If you can get the OEM filters easily, then that may be a good way to go. However, it's a hassle for me and I also extend my OCI while using full synthetic motor oil in "severe" driving conditions. For this reason, I want a higher quality oil filter. The better oil filters happen to also be more accessible to me as I have a new Autozone near my house. All these factors go to why I use a Mobil 1 filter over OEM.

You've got experience with legal situations. You're much higher on the totem pole than me.

I completely agree with what you are saying about quality. And that's what I love about the performance category of aftermarket parts--they're usually cheaper or at the same price as OEM and yet much, much better.

However, with the precision that vehicles are made these days and the tolerances closing up to improve efficiency (especially with Japanese vehicles, which have always had much tighter tolerances than domestic vehicles), I disagree with your view that a 'close-enough' filter design is a good enough design. I believe that it does matter, even if the same filter is spec'd for various applications.

[~tc~]

I'm getting used to that for the Kizashi. Even though the change interval doesn't say so, the fuel smell in the oil and the valvetrain noise screams 'I need fresh oil!'. I have to find a way to do this for the Kizashi in a convenient manner.

Based on what data? What do you correlate these sounds and smells to? Seems like the automotive version of Russian roulette

[KuroNekko]

However, with the precision that vehicles are made these days and the tolerances closing up to improve efficiency (especially with Japanese vehicles, which have always had much tighter tolerances than domestic vehicles), I disagree with your view that a 'close-enough' filter design is a good enough design. I believe that it does matter, even if the same filter is spec'd for various applications.

But then how could the same filter be specified for varying engine designs? They aren't even the same displacement. Oil pressure and oil flow rate will differ from engine to engine, yet it's the same filter.

By 'close-enough', I don't mean in terms of quality or performance. I mean in overall design as I believe oil filters aren't really that sophisticated and are merely that; filters of the oil. Factors like oil pressure and flow rate are generated by the oil pump and the filter needs to perform to meet minimum specs. How well it does over time is more dependent on material quality and build construction. In this regard, I believe materials and construction, not the adherence to OEM design, is more important.

Much like the Suzuki OEM filter goes on various Suzuki engines, the same Mobil 1 oil filter can go on various engines across brands. I believe the logic for both applications is that if the filter fits, then the filtration requirements are similar enough for the same filter to meet or exceed them. Basically, oil filters are more universal than exacting.

I feel the same about fluids like motor oil and gear oil. Suzuki and other manufacturers always push their own OEM-branded products. In reality, there is typically much better stuff out there in addition to the fact that the car manufacturer did not make the fluid in the first place.
Would you use Suzuki fluid knowing there was much better stuff out there that was fully compatible with your car just because Suzuki told you so? The only justification is warranty assurance.
I can't tell you enough how much my manual transmission performance improved after I dumped the Suzuki gear oil for Redline MT-90.
Suzuki also calls for conventional motor oil in their engines. Nope, I'm using synthetic.
You are also considering an upgraded brake fluid for superior brake performance in another thread. You, yourself, acknowledge that there are simply better performing products for the vehicle.
For me, a high-end oil filter is simply an extension of this logic.

Regardless, if there is anything anyone should take away from this discussion, it's to not use cheap shit oil filters like Fram orange cans.

[bootymac]

But then how could the same filter be specified for varying engine designs? They aren't even the same displacement. Oil pressure and oil flow rate will differ from engine to engine, yet it's the same filter.

Because Suzuki designs all their engines around the oil filter!

[KuroNekko]

But then how could the same filter be specified for varying engine designs? They aren't even the same displacement. Oil pressure and oil flow rate will differ from engine to engine, yet it's the same filter.

Because Suzuki designs all their engines around the oil filter!

Ah, of course!

In reality though, thank goodness that Suzuki engineers aren't as clueless as their business people.

[SamirD]

Based on what data? What do you correlate these sounds and smells to? Seems like the automotive version of Russian roulette

Engines working good and smooth don't have such sharp metal-on-metal sounds. As the oil viscosity wears down, you'll hear more noise if you tune your ear to it.

As far as the fuel, just smell your oil. It shouldn't smell too similar to the smell of gasoline. If it does, that can indicate a lot of blowby or some other way that fuel is getting into the oil. As far as our car is concerned, I'm just hoping it's all the city driving and not being fully warming up that's causing it. (The piston rings seal better when fully warmed up.)

[SamirD]

But then how could the same filter be specified for varying engine designs? They aren't even the same displacement. Oil pressure and oil flow rate will differ from engine to engine, yet it's the same filter.

By 'close-enough', I don't mean in terms of quality or performance. I mean in overall design as I believe oil filters aren't really that sophisticated and are merely that; filters of the oil. Factors like oil pressure and flow rate are generated by the oil pump and the filter needs to perform to meet minimum specs. How well it does over time is more dependent on material quality and build construction. In this regard, I believe materials and construction, not the adherence to OEM design, is more important.

Much like the Suzuki OEM filter goes on various Suzuki engines, the same Mobil 1 oil filter can go on various engines across brands. I believe the logic for both applications is that if the filter fits, then the filtration requirements are similar enough for the same filter to meet or exceed them. Basically, oil filters are more universal than exacting.

I feel the same about fluids like motor oil and gear oil. Suzuki and other manufacturers always push their own OEM-branded products. In reality, there is typically much better stuff out there in addition to the fact that the car manufacturer did not make the fluid in the first place.
Would you use Suzuki fluid knowing there was much better stuff out there that was fully compatible with your car just because Suzuki told you so? The only justification is warranty assurance.
I can't tell you enough how much my manual transmission performance improved after I dumped the Suzuki gear oil for Redline MT-90.
Suzuki also calls for conventional motor oil in their engines. Nope, I'm using synthetic.
You are also considering an upgraded brake fluid for superior brake performance in another thread. You, yourself, acknowledge that there are simply better performing products for the vehicle.
For me, a high-end oil filter is simply an extension of this logic.

Regardless, if there is anything anyone should take away from this discussion, it's to not use cheap shit oil filters like Fram orange cans.

It depends on the engine designs and the specs, which we don't have. Who knows, maybe even though they are different engines, the pressure, flowrate, and filtering requirements are the exact same at the filter mount.

I don't believe something such as oil filter doesn't have sophisticated engineering behind it. Therefore I'm actually of the school of thought that engineering is more important than the quality of materials, especially for the stated service life.

I completely agree without on performance fluids, but what I've discovered with even my mid-1990s Japanese cars is that the Japanese makers have also spent the time to engineer specific fluids. Honda led the way with their power steering fluid, and as I later discovered from real-world experience, even their ATF fluid rivals Redline and Amsoil for durability and longevity. I personally think that Suzuki has definitely done this for all the fluids in the car (coolant, awd system, cvt fluid), so I don't plan on even trying to go with anything else as there may be engineering issues caused by using a 'better' fluid like those made by the big three--Amsoil, Redline, and Royal Purple.

x2 on the takeaway. Your car will be as good as the fluids and filters you use. Don't cut corners with aftermarket crap! Use good stuff!

[Ronzuki]

We have a saying in the universe I work in...it's the same, but different. I agree w/ Samir. It's very easy for a manufacturer of antifreeze say (or anything else) to sell to Suzuki a product very similar to "the same" blend as their mass produced stuff but alter the recipe to be "different" in a subtle way per Suzuki spec. Today's automation can easily and effortlessly alter a given recipe with little interruption to production with the click of a mouse. Given the fact that the Japanese are, and have been, known to formulate their own specific fluids (for reasons unknown), why risk using anything other than the OE stuff for the little bit of added cost? Unless of course the manufacturer claims you can use an alternative fluid such as Suzuki does w/ the CVT fluid printed in their documentation.

I can see (but don't agree with) going the easy/convenient/cheapest route if one doesn't plan on holding on to the car long enough to worry about the long-term effects that may arise. Thus, leaving the next owner holding the bag. I'm sure this is why manufacturers are getting more and more anal about service documentation as it relates to 10yr/100k mile warranty claims they are presented with.

[bootymac]

What are your thoughts on using different oils?