trying to find new ways to improve mpg!!!

[~tc~]

I agree, the equation will definitely change in 10 years.

Diesel is available RIGHT NOW. Ideally, the US government would get off their ass and do two things that would radically change our oil consumption over night:
- align the emissions standards with Europe. All the modern diesels that have been refined for literally generations in Europe could be t on a boat and sold here in a month.
- change the fuel tax structure to generate the same overall income, but reverse the penalty to tax diesel less and petrol more. If diesel is the same price, or cheaper than petrol consumers will flock to diesel like crazy. Not only will this generate tremendous revenue for automakers, it will also result in lower costs for ALL consumer goods, since everything you need has been made possible by diesel fuel - even your vegetables at the farmers market were tilled by a Diesel engine tractor.

[KuroNekko]

Would rather leave that car in the a black cloud before I even think about buying it!

I doubt a diesel truck could dust it easily. The Model S P85 has the performance of a Porsche 911 Carrera S. In fact, a faster 0 to 60 time. A diesel truck will be chasing a Model S' no-exhaust-pipe rear unless it has heavy modifications which of course plummet reliability and longevity. I've seen modded diesels throw connecting rods that punched right through the engine. Whoops.

Oh, and the estimated cost of a 1/4 mile drag strip run on a Model S is 5 cents.

[tvrooman1]

And what's the repair price when that hunk of shit breaks, probably 500$ for a battery and stupid prices for a car the government wouldn't allow because they loose out on all profits when there's no cost to run it

[bootymac]

Let's agree to disagree here. I highly doubt diesel truck and electric car enthusiasts can reconcile their differences

[KuroNekko]

Let's agree to disagree here. I highly doubt diesel truck and electric car enthusiasts can reconcile their differences

I wouldn't call it a heated argument here. It's more of a discussion. Tvrooman1 is obviously a diesel truck fan, which is fine, but I'm a Tesla fan. Given $80K, we have very different dream vehicle preferences and we are discussing that.

And what's the repair price when that hunk of shit breaks, probably 500$ for a battery and stupid prices for a car the government wouldn't allow because they loose out on all profits when there's no cost to run it

Actually, the battery of a Model S is close to $20,000 but it depends on the model. That being said, it's under a pretty long warranty and older models have actually had batteries last longer and perform better after 100,000 miles than what even Tesla predicted themselves. Info on that here: http://green.autoblog.com/2013/07/15/ro ... -predicts/

I also wouldn't call a Tesla a "hunk of shit" given it won just about every Car of the Year Award from nearly all automotive publications last year. Everyone from Motor Trend to Consumer Reports has sung high praise about the car. It received the highest rating ever from CR at 99/100.
The Model S is also reliable. Think about it: It has no engine and no transmission. No oil or ATF to worry about. No pistons, no timing belts, no valves, no torque converter, etc. It means less moving parts to go wrong.

Some people fault the Model S on the fire issue from the 3 occurrences of road debris penetrating the battery tray and causing fires. What did Tesla do in response? They created a titanium under-tray to protect the battery pack and offered it for free to all customers. They didn't have to, but they did. Now, their cars have better under-armor than a Jeep Wrangler Rubicon.
Don't believe me? Go see it for yourself and watch it deflect a tow hitch and disintegrate an alternator:
http://www.teslamotors.com/blog/tesla-a ... es-model-s

In comparison, GM knew that their ignitions were faulty and chose to do nothing. Hence, the mess they are in now with their brand new CEO testifying to Congress.


Also, I'm not sure what you are talking about with the government. Tesla received 300 Million from the government to get up and running. Tesla returned the money in full, 5 years ahead of schedule. In comparison, GM and Chrysler took government bail-outs. Ford barely got by without it. Chrysler is now 100% foreign-owned. Surprised about why Cummins is no longer partnered with Dodge/Ram to make their diesel engines? It's because FIAT is making them get their diesel engines from VM Motori, an Italian engine builder which is owned by FIAT.
Meanwhile, Tesla is an American company founded in the USA and builds their cars in the USA.

The Model S also got the highest crash test ratings ever. It is literally the safest car in existence. The Kizashi is one hell of a safe car but the Model S tops it.

So the Tesla Model S is not a "hunk of shit" by any means. Not even close. It's actually one of the best cars ever made and the man leading the company is nothing short of a visionary. I personally think Elon Musk is more impressive than Steve Jobs.

[~tc~]

Sounds like Tucker ... Hopefully, Tesla doesn't suffer the same fate

[tvrooman1]

You do prove a valid point with the car, say we get a natural emp these cars are done! Although so wouldn't most vehicles now adays but in this case older diesels would most likely be the only vehicles on the road and we would be starting over again...

I just figured the cars would be taken off the road like the government had done previously in history due to them not being able to make any marginal profit of them.

I personally wouldn't buy a car that the battery cost 20k cause think of the prices of everything else that could stop working and "could" be under warranty but they just slide it by so when it does break the your sitting there with no way to pay for it due to the rising living prices!

Overall they could potentially do as well as a diesel but only consumers would be the ones using them not and companies/farmers who need large vehicles with towing power to haul our goods.

[~tc~]

Actually, the bigger the vehicle, the more likely it's electric. Trains and the giant mine dump trucks all use electric propulsion. Electric motors have essentially infinite torque at 0 RPM, so they are great for getting big loads moving.

[KuroNekko]

Actually, the bigger the vehicle, the more likely it's electric. Trains and the giant mine dump trucks all use electric propulsion. Electric motors have essentially infinite torque at 0 RPM, so they are great for getting big loads moving.

Yup. This is why freight trains are diesel-electric. The trains burn diesel, but as fuel for generating electricity. The electricity then powers motors that actually drive the wheels. The diesel engine is merely a generator for electric motors.

I personally wouldn't buy a car that the battery cost 20k cause think of the prices of everything else that could stop working and "could" be under warranty but they just slide it by so when it does break the your sitting there with no way to pay for it due to the rising living prices!

There is much less that can go wrong in an EV compared to an ICE (Internal Combustion Engine). While the idea of having to replace a battery down the line may deter people, think of it this way:
Until all that time, you were not paying for gas or diesel at a fuel station. You were paying cents to the dollar for electricity to power the EV assuming you did not power it for free at a charging station (like Tesla's free charging stations or free chargers like what's in my work garage).

Here's a comparison of how much fuel can cost:
According to Cars.com, a 2013 Honda Civic 2 door coupe has an estimated 5 year fuel cost of $8,962. Their site has varying costs per year to account for efficiency loss, but let's assume the same rate and just double the figure for a 10 year fuel cost of $17,924. So basically, even if you drove a fuel efficient compact like a Civic, you'd be spending almost the price of a new battery in 10 years just in gasoline.

Now, keep in mind that Tesla offers free charging and so do many work garages like where I park in downtown Washington, DC. As the article I linked earlier discussed, the batteries from Tesla's first car, the Roadster, has about 80 to 85% of their capacity after 100,000 miles. This means that it's unlikely you'd need to change the battery even at that mileage all while not having spent anything close to what an ICE car would have cost in fossil fuel.
I merely compared a Honda Civic (economy car) to the Tesla Model S (high performance sports sedan) to show you just how much fuel can cost over the years. Basically, even a Civic can cost you the price of a Model S battery in 10 years just in fuel.
What I'm basically saying is that the battery pays for itself in fuel savings by the time you would need to replace it.
However, a Honda Civic isn't comparable to a Model S. A base Tesla Model S performs comparably to an Audi A7 and the high performance Model S P85 is closer to an Audi S7.

Let's also not forget you weren't paying for oil changes, transmission flushes, tune-ups, etc. all that time too. Electric cars even have regenerative braking so many drivers don't use the brakes as much as ICE cars. This will likely go to the brake pads lasting longer therefore, lower brake-related costs.

Other than the price of the car, you save a grip of cash with an EV in the long run.

[Woodie]

Sounds like Tucker ... Hopefully, Tesla doesn't suffer the same fate

Just like them, except they're selling 600 cars a week, over 30,000 out there already.